Specialty Pistols
Long range hunting caliber

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November 30, 2018, 08:54 PM
welderdaehon
Long range hunting caliber
Seeing that many of you have built some monster cannons, and the forum has been a bit quiet, I have a question. I am wanting to build a Savage pistol that I can hunt deer with out to about 800 yards if I can place the bullets correctly. The barrel could extend to 20", and heavy if needed. I have large white tail deer in mind, and the .300 RUM comes to mind since the reloading components are available, along with over the counter ammo. I'm looking at range within reasonable recoil that a great muzzle brake can handle. Any thoughts gentlemen?
November 30, 2018, 09:17 PM
Rooterpig
I have no idea but am interested in the reply’s.
November 30, 2018, 10:40 PM
Hoggin
The 284 Winchester in a 17” barrel got me to 735 yards on a whitetail doe this year.
November 30, 2018, 11:17 PM
rickiesrevenge
What bullet would you use in the RUM?

Aaron
December 01, 2018, 05:43 AM
welderdaehon
Barnes VOR-TX 190 LR if I went the .300 RUM route.
December 01, 2018, 06:15 AM
welderdaehon
Hoggin, what were you using for reloading the .284 winchester rounds you used? I see that only one company actually makes a preloaded round for the .284 Winchester.
December 01, 2018, 08:02 AM
Hoggin
Handloads

162 eldx
December 01, 2018, 11:53 AM
big10
I second the 284


thumbup Rod
------------------------------
It's not a break, it's a brake, unless it's a break, then it's broke ;-)
December 01, 2018, 02:13 PM
Ernie
Factory Ammo choices for 800 yard deer killing:
7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag
6.5 PRC - Not sure what the numbers are on that.
Possibly the 264 Win Mag....I don't know what kind of bullet choices you have with it though.

What barrel length are you considering???


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
December 01, 2018, 04:33 PM
welderdaehon
I can go as long as 20".
December 01, 2018, 09:15 PM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by welderdaehon:
I can go as long as 20".


With a 17-18" barrel, look at rifle data and then subtract 275-300 fps, depending on cartridge and barrel length.
If going 20 inches add 60-65 fps.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
December 02, 2018, 05:53 AM
welderdaehon
I did a site search on that particular caliber and didn't see anything here. I did some online research and it sounds like a great round for deer.
December 02, 2018, 09:01 AM
TxShooter
+1 on the 284. Hard hitting. And can go the distance you want no problem. I'm shooting 168's out of an 18" and getting over 2700 fps.
December 02, 2018, 01:29 PM
welderdaehon
How big of a difference performance wise is there between the .264 Winchester magnum and the .284 Winchester aside from recoil?
December 02, 2018, 03:30 PM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by welderdaehon:
How big of a difference performance wise is there between the .264 Winchester magnum and the .284 Winchester aside from recoil?


A better way to think of it is in the same caliber.
Comparing the 284 Winchester (Or the 280 Rem) to the 7RM
Comparing the 30-06 to the 300WM

In your comparison there will be recoil differences not just due to powder capacity, but also because of bullet weight.
I have never had a 264 WM in a SP.
I have 7 WSM, 7 SAUM, 7RM Improved, 7 LRM, and 7 Dakota.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
December 04, 2018, 11:35 AM
Sawcarver
Its not over the counter ammo but 7-300 Win Mag would be a good whitetail round at distance. Still has over 1000ft/lbs of energy at 800 yards.
December 04, 2018, 12:23 PM
Rog (Buttermilk421)
My personal favorite XP-100 caliber is the 7mm RSAUM. Brass is available from Nosler, Norma, and now ADG.

To me, this is nearly the perfect caliber for a good all around XP-100 specialty pistol. In a 17.5" bbl, I get 2850 FPS using a Berger 168 VLDH bullet. I have shot ~0.250" MOA groups out to 200 yards. I also get good accuracy from the Hornady 162 ELD-X bullet, and it's worked just fine on deer. I've also used the Swift A-Frame 160 grain bullet on a 275-300lb hog.

There are other calibers that work fine as well. Some prefer the 284, and it's a good choice. In my experience, in my own guns, the 7 SAUM beats the 284 handily in velocity and also beats the 280AI in same length barrels - even though the 280AI and 7 SAUM are similar case capacities and virtual ballistic twins - my 7 RSAUM has been better in terms of ballistics.

If your set on a 30 caliber, I'd take a long hard look at the 30 Nosler over the 300 RUM (I have a 300 RUM rifle and really like that round). I think in the shorter XP-100 barrels, the 30 Nosler will do quite good in 17-18" bbls. In fact, my next XP-100 may very well be a 30 Nosler, but have yet fully made up my mind.

A 7mm Blaser Mag is also another one to consider. Norma makes brass. Will likely do very well in an XP-100 chambering and tread on the heels of a 7 Dakota.


Regards,
Rog (Buttermilk421)


December 04, 2018, 06:47 PM
Ernie
Soon, I will have a 26 Nosler center-grip XP-100.
Sendero taper/Holland Radial baffle brake.
For sure bigger than the 264 win mag, but I will have an idea how an overbore 6.5 recoils with this set-up.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
December 04, 2018, 08:57 PM
tgp
I have a 28 Nosler as does a few others on here, mine has a 18" barrel and will push 195 grain Bergers along around 2800 fps. Have a 6.5 WSM being built now with a light varmint contour, 7 twist barrel, in a center grip McMillan that hopefully will be my go to LR hunting gun. Had a 7WSM in a MOA for years that would hammer deer. Any round that you would use in a rifle for long range hunting would work good in a SP, the choice being up to you. I would recommend looking at case availability along with die prices when making your decision.

good luck!
Glenn


------------------------------
“Evil, unchecked, is the prelude to genocide. - Anonymous”
― Joel C. Rosenberg, The Auschwitz Escape


December 04, 2018, 10:14 PM
Nitemann
quote:
Had a 7WSM in a MOA


Glenn, Look familiar?


December 04, 2018, 10:51 PM
tgp
yes it does!! Started wanting one right after letting that one go.

Glenn


------------------------------
“Evil, unchecked, is the prelude to genocide. - Anonymous”
― Joel C. Rosenberg, The Auschwitz Escape


December 04, 2018, 11:40 PM
welderdaehon
I will have to do more research on the calibers mentioned and the reloading supplies. If I go the reloading route, I will pick up another set of Forster dies, assuming they cover the intended caliber.
December 05, 2018, 05:09 PM
welderdaehon
Would I get the same results I am looking for with the 6.5X284 Norma round?
December 05, 2018, 05:41 PM
rickiesrevenge
800 is a decent poke for killing. How I would go about picking the cartridge is by picking the bullet that will do what you want at the distance you want to be able too shoot. So IF you decide that the 6.5mm 140gr Berger vld will get you the terminal performance you want then you figure out what cartidge will launch it fast enough. Bergers need 2000fps at impact to open correctly IMO. Most other bullets need around 1800, some are 1600, and there are a few that are lower than that. Figure you'll lose around 250-300fps with a pistol length barrel compared to what the rifle guys get. Run a ballistic calculator and you'll quickly weed through cartridges that weren't big enough.

Aaron
December 05, 2018, 08:44 PM
welderdaehon
I have the latest Hornady and Berger reloading manuals out, and have been pouring through the data listed, and looking at the sectional density for the various cartridges and bullets. I've also been going through Chuck Hawk's recoil table, looking at the various calibers and cartridge weights listed for each. Each caliber mentioned has its pros and cons, and as I told Ernie, I tend to go with calibers that I can buy ammo for off the shelf and reload for. The gun would be a Savage 516 FSAK, and while it would be nice to use the magazine, I can reload. I have a chronograph and access to a 600 yard range to test ballistics and see the extreme spread from one round to the next. For each caliber I reload for, I have notes listing the specifics for the store bought ammo in the case I don't have time to reload rounds.
December 06, 2018, 01:56 PM
Sawcarver
If you have a 600 yard range available then I would set a 600 yard limit on your shots unless you can get somewhere longer to confirm drops.

I would also hunt with a good spotter, so they can confirm distance, wind, and watch what happens during the shot and after. Shooting at 800 yards then going to look for the animal the area can look very different once you get to where the animal was at.

Also like Aaron said bullet performance at lower velocities is critical
December 06, 2018, 02:04 PM
welderdaehon
With that thought, which bullets will open correctly as low as 1000 lbs. of energy? The bullet I keep hearing success stories on are Barnes Triple Shocks, and according to Hornady, their ELD-X bullet is designed for long range hunting applications. Knowing the energy needed for proper expansion will give me an additional idea of what the fps can not drop below. And thank you gentlemen for your ideas on cartridges and concerns on proper bullet choice and over-reaching with yardage.
December 06, 2018, 03:07 PM
big10
Energy is a result of velocity and mass. If you ask bullet makers they will inform you as to the minimum velocity required for expansion. It usually runs between 1,600 and 2,000 fps depending bullet design and composition with 1,800 being most common I have found.


thumbup Rod
------------------------------
It's not a break, it's a brake, unless it's a break, then it's broke ;-)
December 06, 2018, 03:08 PM
Rog (Buttermilk421)
quote:
Originally posted by welderdaehon:
With that thought, which bullets will open correctly as low as 1000 lbs. of energy? The bullet I keep hearing success stories on are Barnes Triple Shocks, and according to Hornady, their ELD-X bullet is designed for long range hunting applications. Knowing the energy needed for proper expansion will give me an additional idea of what the fps can not drop below. And thank you gentlemen for your ideas on cartridges and concerns on proper bullet choice and over-reaching with yardage.


Just to add my 2 cents...

It's the velocity you need to know for proper expansion (as opposed to energy) at the distance you intend to take an animal.

Most bullets need ~1800 fps minimum for expansion. Some need a bit more, some are advertised lower such as the Nosler AB Long Range version (1300 fps min needed for expansion).

When looking at loading manuals, and wondering what the velocity of a specific cartridge might be in a typical specialty pistol barrel length, I normally take the rifle bbl velocity and substract ~10%-~12% off the rifle bbl velocity. The Berger manual also lists the fps loss/gain per inch of barrel if the barrel length is different from their's.


Regards,
Rog (Buttermilk421)


December 06, 2018, 04:24 PM
welderdaehon
The Nosler AB bullets are what I will use for reloading, so I will have to look through my Berger manual and see what information I can find. I found the info for the .264 Winchester Magnum, and am looking at the .284 Winchester.
December 06, 2018, 04:56 PM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by welderdaehon:
The Nosler AB bullets are what I will use for reloading, so I will have to look through my Berger manual and see what information I can find.

1,800 fps minimum impact velocity for AB
Noticeably lower for the LRAB


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
December 06, 2018, 07:07 PM
welderdaehon
What bullets would you use Ernie?
December 06, 2018, 07:55 PM
welderdaehon
The .30 Nosler also sounds interesting.
December 06, 2018, 09:22 PM
rickiesrevenge
The problem you're gonna run into is bullets. Bullets that will expand at slow speeds don't normally do well up close. An example of that is the AMAX. They will open at very low speeds but can detonate at close range.

I ran some numbers on JBM ballistic. A .264" 130gr AB @2900fps would get you about 650-700 yards and still be 1800fps. Gonna depend on your environmental conditions and launch speed. The 6.5x284 should be in the 2750fps ballpark. Maybe more, maybe less. A bullet like the AMAX which will expand much lower will get you a lot more range. IF you chose a bullet like the amax or LRAB stay off the shoulder if you want any of that meat.

Aaron
December 06, 2018, 09:33 PM
welderdaehon
I will keep that in mind. The conditions would be a Minnesota November, and about 6,000 acres of land that was just cleared of corn, so wind will be the big factor.
December 07, 2018, 10:19 AM
big10
quote:
The problem you're gonna run into is bullets. Bullets that will expand at slow speeds don't normally do well up close. An example of that is the AMAX. They will open at very low speeds but can detonate at close range.


This is the dilemma. Perhaps one can find two bullets with similar weight and BC so as to not change POI yet one perform well at long range and the other at shorter ranges. No one bullet is going to be ideal for both.


thumbup Rod
------------------------------
It's not a break, it's a brake, unless it's a break, then it's broke ;-)
December 07, 2018, 02:57 PM
rickiesrevenge
So far I'm really liking the Lehigh controlled chaos. They open down to 1400fps. Being a turned copper bullet they don't detonate like a really soft bullet though. The one thing they are lacking on is bc. Even with the lower bc they still extend the range of my 284 quite a bit. So far it's the best of both worlds that I've found. I haven't used one at long distance yet.

Aaron
December 18, 2018, 08:03 AM
Freeze
quote:
Originally posted by rickiesrevenge:
The problem you're gonna run into is bullets. Bullets that will expand at slow speeds don't normally do well up close. An example of that is the AMAX. They will open at very low speeds but can detonate at close range.

......

Aaron



No intention to highjack, but have a question about low impact velocity bullet performance.

Aaron,

In your experience what do you consider the minimum impact velocity for the Hornady A-Max?

I have heard and read several mentions of them really breaking up at high velocity. I ask about the low end velocity because I don't think in my use (and limited experience) I am drive them fast enough to detonate even at close range.


Thanks,
Freeze
December 18, 2018, 12:46 PM
JasonFord
Freeze if you call Hornady they will give you the min/max impact velocity for any bullet they make. They are pretty quick about it too.
December 18, 2018, 01:45 PM
Freeze
quote:
Originally posted by JasonFord:
Freeze if you call Hornady they will give you the min/max impact velocity for any bullet they make. They are pretty quick about it too.



JasonFord,

Thanks for the suggestion, but Hornady couldn't provide the answer.

I just made the call to Hornady and they claim that they have no minimum impact velocity recommendation because the A-Max was not designed as a hunting bullet, nor do they recommend it's use for hunting.

That is what I expected, since it is not marketed as a hunting bullet.


Plus, I would still be interested in actual real world experience from the knowledgeable members here.


Thanks,
Freeze

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Freeze,
December 18, 2018, 03:50 PM
Hoggin
I know the 308 168 amax will do it’s job well down to 1300
December 18, 2018, 04:15 PM
Freeze
quote:
Originally posted by Hoggin:
I know the 308 168 amax will do it’s job well down to 1300


Thanks Chris!
I figured someone would have some sort of real world experience that I could learn from.

Posts like this reinforce to me the value of a formun with an experienced and trustworthy membership.


Thanks,
Freeze
December 18, 2018, 04:26 PM
rickiesrevenge
I'd recommend that you shoot a few into wet news paper at low velocities to test them yourself. I did this with 7mm bergers when I was testing whether or not annealing the front of them made a difference. Kinda a pain to deal with a pile of wet news paper but it was enlightening. Was able to replicate some recovered bullets that didn't perform like I think they should.

Aaron