Specialty Pistols
ELR Handgun

This topic can be found at:
https://specialtypistols.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3826077864/m/6200020296

July 28, 2018, 05:02 PM
7fingers
ELR Handgun
Any thoughts on establishing an ELR Handgun group?
July 28, 2018, 08:16 PM
old leghumper
Sounds like a good idea. First handgun ELR perameters would need to be agreed upon, most importantly barrel length, realistic handgun distances, finding ranges for that distance and most important, shooters willing to try.

Rayners the last few months, two handgunners(I now have a toy ready to go), Sundance Cold Turkey match 24 gunners - a record(only three that live within 100 miles).

The biggest obstacle to overcome is get all the keyboard shooters(95%) of all to participate. The gauntlet is now laid down.


----------------------
Never argue with an idiot: they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
I am that idiot.
July 28, 2018, 09:30 PM
7fingers
The rules and regulations would have to follow ELR rifle matche rules very closely. For handgun world record attempts the rules would be identical, cold bore and two following shots. All competitors would shoot from the same position using bipod and rear bag. Target distances would also follow ELR rules and start at 1500 yards. Our LR Handguns are very capable of 2400 plus yards which means an ELR world record could be held by a LR Handgun, wouldn’t that upset the shooting world. I believe our biggest obstacle will be agreeing on barrel length. I think for handgun shooters to be taken seriously in this type of competition we need to keep barrel length 15.995 max which would keep us under the minimum barrel length for a rifle even though there is not a maximum barrel length established for handguns. I would love to see the LR Handgun community recieve the same respect and notoriety as ELR rifle competitors. These are just my thoughts. For this to happen there will need to be a lot of open minded conversation on the subject.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 7fingers,
July 28, 2018, 10:30 PM
old leghumper
Likey likey


----------------------
Never argue with an idiot: they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
I am that idiot.
July 28, 2018, 10:42 PM
Iowa Fox
Good to see a post from you Randy, been wondering how your 28 Nos is doing. I think along with barrel length you will need a top limit weight restriction. Along with small groups on paper keep a heavy fun factor in it. Kind of like the guys that I know that shoot milk jugs at a mile. I sure wish the Pella 1K range was still operational. I just picked up a new action Tuesday, barrel is only in the thought process.

Jon
July 29, 2018, 09:13 AM
Ernie
I think it is a good idea.
I don't agree with the maximum barrel length of a smidgen under 16", but that is okay.
I personally don't have any interest in owning a 15" NOS, RUM, or Chey-Tac.
I wouldn't want to spend that kind of money to play the game, then have that SP handicap from the other uses I would want to use it for.
I have RUM's and a Chey-Tac in SP's, but the barrels are longer than 15.9".
When you look at the barrel lengths of the majority of of the ELR rifle shooters, how much longer are their barrels than typical hunting rifles?
I agree that the distance part itself is not a problem
We had new guys to LR shooting with SP's connecting on a steel prairie dog at 1175 yards, from cold bore on the third shot this year.
Then, a 1st shot connection at 1592 yard on a 18" target by another new shooter.
Both with a short action cartridge in 6mm (Creedmoor).
One mile plus is very reasonable for SP shooters, and has been for a long time now.
I can see a handful (or two...up to 10) of guys interested in this enough, to spend the money to build something of this nature, then to travel to make it happen. My guess is the barrel limit of 15" would make that number shorter.
I am 20 minutes away from a steel range where I can shoot beyond 2000 yards.
Very rarely do I shoot beyond 1400-1500 yards myself.
Do I shoot that far? Yes, just not very often.
Randy, you are an excellent shooter and I have been pleased to see you do so well.
Take the SP you want and go shoot with the rifle guys.
I believe the respect will be there for you whether your barrel is under 16" or 18".


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 29, 2018, 09:19 AM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by old leghumper

The biggest obstacle to overcome is get all the keyboard shooters(95%) of all to participate. The gauntlet is now laid down.


Biggest challenge is the distance and the overall cost of getting up and running. Many 1000 yard rifle shooters are intimidated by the King Of The 2 Mile event, and similar ELR formats.
The sport is definitely growing though, which is real cool in my opinion.
Most SP shooters are not going to be interested enough to do this, even though they will cheer along those who are.

There are a number of shooting disciplines I do not compete in for a variety of reasons. It does not mean I am a keyboard shooter though.

PRS with a SP has been tickling my interest lately...Why? It is a type of field shooting that looks fun and humbling to me Cool


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 29, 2018, 09:51 AM
Hoggin
I’ll stick with if the Atf calls it a pistol it’s a pistol.


The ELR rifles look nothing like a hunting rig and most are useless outside of the game they are playing.

Punching paper groups interests a lot less people than steel, vermin, or game animals.

I’m about 10 min out from a area I can shoot to 2500. Farthest I have gone is 1600. Most of my shooting is inside my hunting distance for my given caliber. Most of which is 800 and in.
July 29, 2018, 09:58 AM
40xmike
Randy,
I think this a neat idea.

Ernie made a lot of valid points. I too think the biggest obstacle will be getting all to agree on a max barrel length?
Obstacles are meant to be overcome though Cool


The ELR game is taking off like wildfire, and there's no reason the SP crowd shouldn't play too thumbup


-mike
July 29, 2018, 11:55 AM
jsh
First off I like the idea. Not to rain on anyone's parade on the other hand.
As many folks that seem to like to shoot SP's, there are very few that will participate in IHMSA. Maybe they think it is to easy Roll Eyes
Then again I think there are a lot of keyboard shooters, as mentioned.
The other thing as mentioned is available ranges.
Shooting with rifle guys, I can hold my own with them out to 4-500. Have not played beyond that enough to talk about, lack of access to such distance any more.
In this neck of the woods it tends to offend some rifle shooters to be out done by a SP. I was once invited to a casual rifle shoot, they knew I was an SP guy. Showed up with my 6-223 XP, as normal there was the wise cracks by a lot of them. All over said and done I was in the top 5. They cried foul, yet I was shooting in Creedmoor and they were shooting from a bench with bags!
Forward, they arranged the rules so as there would be no SP's.

All of that for 15 minutes of fame to get your name on the white board in magic marker.

I am happy for those of you allowed into the rifle matches with your SP's.

Weight and barrel length, limited and unlimited, run what ya brung.
Jeff


---------------------------------
G whiz, it's a Contender or a G2, never was a G One!
July 29, 2018, 01:50 PM
old leghumper
Yes, barrel length is the elephant in the room. Everyone has a different idea what a handgun barrel length should be.

Back in the 70's when I started shooting competively, I used a 6" Model 29 S&W in IHMSA. WOW the came a 10" TC and finally the unlimited class with a 15" barrel. Dang that is long.

In the Cold Turkey Match it was decided that for the Light gun class 15" so that factory XP's and HS's would fit. The heavy gun class let barrel up to 18" fit - many shooters has a gun with this barrel length. I built mine with a 17.5" barrel - I did this more for the weight than anything else.

With ELR being a newish game, we need to start there. If you feel the need for a longer barrel you may as well shoot a rifle to take advantage of better ballistics.

Quote "In this neck of the woods it tends to offend some rifle shooters to be out done by a SP. I was once invited to a casual rifle shoot, they knew I was an SP guy. Showed up with my 6-223 XP, as normal there was the wise cracks by a lot of them. All over said and done I was in the top 5. They cried foul, yet I was shooting in Creedmoor and they were shooting from a bench with bags!
Forward, they arranged the rules so as there would be no SP's" This reminds me of Kebley's supershoot back in the 80's. Richard Mertz and son took their MOA pistols and won all 100 and 200 yard matches and aggregates. Imagine that next year they banned handguns.

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!! Smile


----------------------
Never argue with an idiot: they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
I am that idiot.
July 29, 2018, 01:54 PM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by jsh:
Shooting with rifle guys, I can hold my own with them out to 4-500. Have not played beyond that enough to talk about, lack of access to such distance any more.
In this neck of the woods it tends to offend some rifle shooters to be out done by a SP. I was once invited to a casual rifle shoot, they knew I was an SP guy. Showed up with my 6-223 XP, as normal there was the wise cracks by a lot of them. All over said and done I was in the top 5. They cried foul, yet I was shooting in Creedmoor and they were shooting from a bench with bags!
Forward, they arranged the rules so as there would be no SP's.

All of that for 15 minutes of fame to get your name on the white board in magic marker.

I am happy for those of you allowed into the rifle matches with your SP's.

Weight and barrel length, limited and unlimited, run what ya brung.
Jeff


Shooting in a couple of IBS thousand yard matches, and then shooting at a number of years in the international tactical rifle championship and the Wyoming tactical rifle championship, I’ve never had rifle guys trying to knock me out from shooting again regardless of where we placed.
Sorry to hear that has happened to you JEFF. I know that back in the day of the pistol short range bench rest matches rich Mertz and some other guys were uninvited, after they beat some rifle boys at their own game.
Even at the nationals and world F-class matches in Raton, at the National Rifle Association range I was asked why I wasn’t shooting with my specialty pistols at 1000 yards for F-Open.
I know at some of the F class matches in and around Wyoming they have allowed specialty pistol shooters to shoot in their matches, and their specialty pistols even have muzzle brakes.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 29, 2018, 03:29 PM
jsh
Hey, I'm not whining about them or being excluded at all. That was around twenty years ago. That was a pretty informal, loosely run match.
And don't think what Mr Mertz told you and what I mentioned is an isolated incident. I know of two other groups of IHMSA shooters that got uninvited back after shooting with rifle shooters. It's not a big deal really, just the few whiners make a mess of things. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Jeff


---------------------------------
G whiz, it's a Contender or a G2, never was a G One!
July 29, 2018, 03:42 PM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by jsh:
Hey, I'm not whining about them or being excluded at all. That was around twenty years ago. That was a pretty informal, loosely run match.
And don't think what Mr Mertz told you and what I mentioned is an isolated incident. I know of two other groups of IHMSA shooters that got uninvited back after shooting with rifle shooters. It's not a big deal really, just the few whiners make a mess of things. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Jeff

Never thought you were whining.
Just glad I haven’t ran into this nonsense yet ( But I likely will though).
I already know of a PRS shooter on a closed/paid membership FB Page was trying to get support to not allow SP shooters at PRS matches.
He didn’t get any support though.
I haven’t even been to this match yet...sad


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 29, 2018, 04:27 PM
Hoggin
quote:
Originally posted by Ernie:
quote:
Originally posted by jsh:
Hey, I'm not whining about them or being excluded at all. That was around twenty years ago. That was a pretty informal, loosely run match.
And don't think what Mr Mertz told you and what I mentioned is an isolated incident. I know of two other groups of IHMSA shooters that got uninvited back after shooting with rifle shooters. It's not a big deal really, just the few whiners make a mess of things. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Jeff

Never thought you were whining.
Just glad I haven’t ran into this nonsense yet ( But I likely will though).
I already know of a PRS shooter on a closed/paid membership FB Page was trying to get support to not allow SP shooters at PRS matches.
He didn’t get any support though.
I haven’t even been to this match yet...sad



There is always someone that is worried about getting beat
July 29, 2018, 07:31 PM
7fingers
Wow, I just got home and I am shocked to see all of the replies. There have been a lot of good points brought up in all this discussion. Everyone here agrees that the biggest sticking point with SP shooters will be establishing barrel length which would need to be agreed upon. Barrel length is not my biggest concern, our biggest issue is getting the NRA to allow us to compete in these competitions with the rifles. The NRA/ELR match I competed in was a first for the NRA reguarding the use of SP/LR Handguns in a Rifle Match and will be the last unless we can convince the NRA officials otherwise. Towards the end of the competition the NRA official came over and talk to me about my handgun, he said that he could appreciate what we have done with these long range handguns and thinks that it is great to see us pushing limits but next year my pistol will not be allowed due to the NRA rule which state all weapons must be shoulder fired. I believe that if we can organize and come up with rules to govern SP/LR Handguns in ELR Competition/World Record Events that the NRA would consider giving us equal opportunity to compete right along side of the rifles. I posted to see if there was enough interest in the SP world to pursue any of this. I will continue to compete against rifles wherever they allow but would like to see all SP/LR Handgunners recieve the same opportunity as Rifle Shooters in these ELR events.
July 29, 2018, 08:39 PM
280 AI
I think this would open a whole new shooting sport ! Count me in !!
I would think about cartridges to get to 2000 or beyond and with a 15" barrel would be hard but I am not really experienced . I personally would like a 18 inch tube but I do have one with 16 " .
This is new territory that would open up a new ideas about what could be done with a pistol . Thank You Very Interesting
July 29, 2018, 08:42 PM
Hoggin
I would just look for something besides the NRA to host it under.

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians there to get something done.
July 29, 2018, 08:46 PM
tgp
quote:
I would just look for something besides the NRA to host it under.


WY-SHOT day 3 mile shoot?

Glenn


------------------------------
“Evil, unchecked, is the prelude to genocide. - Anonymous”
― Joel C. Rosenberg, The Auschwitz Escape


July 29, 2018, 08:46 PM
old leghumper
quote:
Originally posted by 7fingers:
Any thoughts on establishing an ELR Handgun group?


Also try posting this on accurateshooter.com.


----------------------
Never argue with an idiot: they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
I am that idiot.
July 29, 2018, 09:19 PM
7fingers
quote:
Originally posted by 280 AI:
I think this would open a whole new shooting sport ! Count me in !!
I would think about cartridges to get to 2000 or beyond and with a 15" barrel would be hard but I am not really experienced . I personally would like a 18 inch tube but I do have one with 16 " .
This is new territory that would open up a new ideas about what could be done with a pistol . Thank You Very Interesting

There are several calibers that will get you beyond the 2000 yard mark in a 16 inch barrel. The 28 Nosler that I used was very accurate at 2400. We spotted my first shot short and after my correction we were not able to see impacts with our spotting scopes however after my final shot a spotter from another team that could see said that my last 4 shots were 1/2 MOA low directly under the plate and was the best group that he had seen all day. These SP/LR Handguns are very capable of competing against rifles, as it stands right now the world record is 2011yds which is very doable with a SP/LR Handgun.
July 29, 2018, 11:01 PM
Iowa Fox
We watched Aaron hammer this plate the first year we were at Wy-Shot.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Iowa Fox,
July 29, 2018, 11:21 PM
Ernie
https://imgur.com/a/XZ27b7P


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 30, 2018, 07:18 AM
Sawcarver
I would be interested, however like most guys it would depend on where it was and what else happened at the event. I know I wouldn't be terribly interested to drive 2000 miles to shoot 25 rounds.

Running an 18" barrel I think would also attract more shooters, if the NRA is making the distinction of a "shoulder fired weapon" then barrel length shouldn't be a huge thing especially when the rifle guys are running 6' tall rifles. 18" barrel also will include rigs some of us already have built for this type of thing. My 7-300 win mag was built to fit in the MOA heavy gun box and it will hold its own past 1k
July 30, 2018, 09:36 AM
Hoggin
What makes rules official?

A group of people getting together and setting them.

I would just start your own rule book. Get enough competing in it and I’m sure one of the shooting organizations would then adopt it if the can make money off it
July 30, 2018, 12:43 PM
Iowa Fox
quote:
Originally posted by Hoggin:
What makes rules official?

A group of people getting together and setting them.

I would just start your own rule book. Get enough competing in it and I’m sure one of the shooting organizations would then adopt it if the can make money off it


Constrictive rules will kill this thing before it gets off the ground and is why I made the earlier comment about keeping the high fun factor in it, at least to start with. Is three inches of barrel going to make a big difference? It's pretty easy to get to 30-35 Lbs on XP with benchrest stock. I told Ernie once that what I like about Wy-Shot is there are no rules only rules of safety. Out of this small group of shooters the same guys are going to win and thats because they are skilled shooters. You could give them Red Ryders and they would still win. Some guys would complain because they won because they were shooting silver colored BB's and they were stuck shooting copper colored bullets out of their 6.5x284s.

Mike said it best "it's old friends getting together to burn powder. Thats what will launch this thing.

Here's one where the guys flopped down and cut loose. I think the plate was at 2640 if I remember half way correctly.

Front to back

Glenn 28 Nosler
Adam 7-300
Aaron 7 Dakota
Marc 6.5 284

Yep, skilled shooters.

Spotting Mike & Ernie and I'm not sure who is in the orange shirt. Its was 100 degrees and the wind was horrible that day. Everybody had fun including me watching.

Jon


July 30, 2018, 01:01 PM
old leghumper
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hoggin:
I would just look for something besides the NRA to host it under.

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians there to get something done.[/QUOTe

+1


----------------------
Never argue with an idiot: they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
I am that idiot.
July 30, 2018, 01:28 PM
Ernie
WYSHOT guys and gals...Just tell me how far you want to shoot. happy
The 1175ish pd’s and 1600 yardish gong will be there for your enjoyment next year.
I could also set up 1 mile, and 2300, 2400, or 2500 yard targets as well.
Might set up a prairie dog at just be on 2000 yards just for giggles Troll


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 30, 2018, 01:40 PM
Hoggin
quote:
Originally posted by Ernie:
WYSHOT guys and gals...Just tell me how far you want to shoot. happy
The 1175ish pd’s and 1600 yardish gong will be there for your enjoyment next year.
I could also set up 1 mile, and 2300, 2400, or 2500 yard targets as well.
Might set up a prairie dog at just be on 2000 yards just for giggles Troll


We could put the coyote at 2000. Little better size.
July 30, 2018, 01:53 PM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by Iowa Fox:
Constrictive rules will kill this thing before it gets off the ground and is why I made the earlier comment about keeping the high fun factor in it, at least to start with. Is three inches of barrel going to make a big difference?
It's pretty easy to get to 30-35 Lbs on XP with benchrest stock.
I told Ernie once that what I like about Wy-Shot is there are no rules only rules of safety. Out of this small group of shooters the same guys are going to win and that's because they are skilled shooters.
You could give them Red Ryders and they would still win.
Some guys would complain because they won because they were shooting silver colored BB's and they were stuck shooting copper colored bullets out of their 6.5x284s.

Mike said it best "it's old friends getting together to burn powder. Thats what will launch this thing.

Here's one where the guys flopped down and cut loose. I think the plate was at 2640 if I remember half way correctly.
Front to back:
Glenn 28 Nosler
Adam 7-300
Aaron 7 Dakota
Marc 6.5 284
Yep, skilled shooters.

Spotting Mike & Ernie and I'm not sure who is in the orange shirt. Its was 100 degrees and the wind was horrible that day. Everybody had fun including me watching.
Jon

Dan Ekstrom is the other spotter


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 30, 2018, 05:06 PM
7fingers
I completely understand the fun aspect of this however the ELR and NRA have rules to keep competition as fair as possible and yes 3 inches makes one hell of a difference when you are talking handguns in large calibers. I can guarantee you that if someone was to go to WY-Shot with a barrel 26-28 inches long and mop everybody up there would be one hell of a stink and rules would be in place for the next shoot. I wasn’t trying to start a pis*ing match about barrel length, all I’m saying is that there needs to be a set of rules to govern ELR Handguns in formal events so that hopefully our sport can grow and receive the same acknowledgment as ELR rifle events.
July 30, 2018, 07:22 PM
Ernie
I have considered putting a 18" or 20" cap on barrel length.
It is also easy to just document barrel length, when someone does something really cool.
No problems here.
Different shoots have different rules or lack of them.
From what I know of different ELR matches they have different rules as well.
I don't see a need for there to be a set of rules that will govern all SP shoots beyond 1K myself.
IBS, NBRSA, and PA rules have been different from each other at one time or another for 600 and 1000 yard LG and HG.
Each had their own records. There has been a conjoining to where there is harmony.
There are also a variety of LR steel shooting bench matches too. Different games with different rules.
Even with the NRA games such as F-Class, (They can go beyond 1K too) they have different rules than all of the above disciplines.
No one denies the legitimacy of what the different disciplines accomplish within their game, even though weight, width of forend, brakes or no brakes, bench or prone, bi-pod or front rest are different.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 30, 2018, 08:34 PM
Hoggin
quote:
Originally posted by 7fingers:
I completely understand the fun aspect of this however the ELR and NRA have rules to keep competition as fair as possible and yes 3 inches makes one hell of a difference when you are talking handguns in large calibers. I can guarantee you that if someone was to go to WY-Shot with a barrel 26-28 inches long and mop everybody up there would be one hell of a stink and rules would be in place for the next shoot. I wasn’t trying to start a pis*ing match about barrel length, all I’m saying is that there needs to be a set of rules to govern ELR Handguns in formal events so that hopefully our sport can grow and receive the same acknowledgment as ELR rifle events.


We had someone with a what was a rifle that just took the butt stock off....the positions and field shooting even out the field.

We have one sponsored shooter and they are the only one with a gun built for the game. Meaning stock weighted and such...and they haven’t won.


So far guys with hunting style xp100 have done the best over the 5 years.
July 30, 2018, 09:22 PM
7fingers
quote:
Originally posted by Ernie:
I have considered putting a 18" or 20" cap on barrel length.
It is also easy to just document barrel length, when someone does something really cool.
No problems here.
Different shoots have different rules or lack of them.
From what I know of different ELR matches they have different rules as well.
I don't see a need for there to be a set of rules that will govern all SP shoots beyond 1K myself.
IBS, NBRSA, and PA rules have been different from each other at one time or another for 600 and 1000 yard LG and HG.
Each had their own records. There has been a conjoining to where there is harmony.
There are also a variety of LR steel shooting bench matches too. Different games with different rules.
Even with the NRA games such as F-Class, (They can go beyond 1K too) they have different rules than all of the above disciplines.
No one denies the legitimacy of what the different disciplines accomplish within their game, even though weight, width of forend, brakes or no brakes, bench or prone, bi-pod or front rest are different.


I don’t believe that the ELR community would have an issue with establishing a handgun class if there were a set of rules to govern it and there were more competitors than just one which is why I brought the subject up in the first place. There are a lot of great SP shooters out there and I would like nothing more than to see them compete and be recognized for their ability. I honestly believe that we have as much chance at setting a Long Range World Record as any rifle shooter. The current World Record is 2011 yards which is well within the realm of a competent SP Handgun shooter. What you are doing Ernie with Wy-Shot is great and there are a lot of outstanding accomplishments by the shooters that compete there. You and I both know that given the opportunity SP Shooters can compete on an even playing field against most rifles and I would just like to see it happen. Like I said earlier, wouldn’t it be fantastic for the ELR World Record to be held by a Long Range Handgun.
July 30, 2018, 09:25 PM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by Hoggin:
quote:
Originally posted by 7fingers:
I completely understand the fun aspect of this however the ELR and NRA have rules to keep competition as fair as possible and yes 3 inches makes one hell of a difference when you are talking handguns in large calibers. I can guarantee you that if someone was to go to WY-Shot with a barrel 26-28 inches long and mop everybody up there would be one hell of a stink and rules would be in place for the next shoot. I wasn’t trying to start a pis*ing match about barrel length, all I’m saying is that there needs to be a set of rules to govern ELR Handguns in formal events so that hopefully our sport can grow and receive the same acknowledgment as ELR rifle events.


We had someone with a what was a rifle that just took the butt stock off....the positions and field shooting even out the field.

We have one sponsored shooter and they are the only one with a gun built for the game. Meaning stock weighted and such...and they haven’t won.


So far guys with hunting style xp100 have done the best over the 5 years.


The competitor with the stockless rifle, actually did worse than he did the two years previous, when he was shooting a single shot XP.
His XP wasn’t finished and he chose not to borrow a XP like he did the two previous years.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 30, 2018, 09:39 PM
280 AI
I like the thought on this becoming something real and will be on board if my equipment will make it , if not maybe I need some new !
Is there any place to have a match in the middle part of the country that can support such a shoot like this ?
I have gone to Sundance last 3 years and will continue to go as long as the funds and vacation continues to come around . That being said it would be nice to have one that was some what centrally located .

7fingers Thank You , it definitely sparks the imagination Hope it continues to make progress !
July 30, 2018, 10:08 PM
Ernie
I honestly do not mind just bringing the specialty pistol that I would use and just shoot under the rifle rules. As long as they will let me compete that way then I have no problem with it.
I’ve been able to do the same in several different disciplines with no problems.
From the guys that have spoke up so far, I think if we were to set up guidelines, it seems like a 18 inch barrel maximum, would be more agreed-upon by at least those who are posting right now then a sub 16 inch barrel length.

If, I were to actually do it, I would either shoot a 7mm, 30 caliber, 338, or 375.
The ones I would consider using have 18 inch barrels or 20 inch barrels.
Actually, I would do a completely new builds, as the barrel contours are too light for a dedicated comp rig of that type, with the exception of the 375 Snipe-Tac. It has a 20” tube.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
July 31, 2018, 11:15 AM
Sawfish
I am not an ELR shooter so I don't have a dog in this hunt. However, IMHO it seems to me that at some point you are stretching the bounds of reality (if not practicality) to refer to some of the guns being used in ELR as "handguns".


------------------------------
Good Shooting Makes Good Hunting
NRA Patron Member, FTRA Member;
Life Member SCI, NAHH, RMEF, and NSRPA; HHI Member #7108, Member CBA, NSSF

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many good books, or too much ammunition."
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July 31, 2018, 12:44 PM
Topstrap
I've always used a slightly less than 16" on my longrange pistols. IHMSA felt 15" was a good limit. Anything under 16" on a rifle is illegal.

Part of the challenge is dealing with lower velocities which is part of the challenge. Randy has certainly shown it's possible to be competitive with the rifles with a less than 16" barrel.

Guess there will always be those that always look to stretch any rules or as we call them around here at the longrange matches "gamers" seeking an advantage.

Randy has certainly been innovative with what he's done with his 16 inch longrange pistols. Getting accuracy with a shorter barrel took some experimenting since a good rifle load may not be right for a pustol.

My vote which means diddly squat here is stay under 16 inches and quit calling a rifle without a shoulder stock a pistol.

Guess I'll go back into hiding again we'll do our thing here locally.

Topstrap


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYrrYSivvGg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRpZUsog_Jo
August 08, 2018, 04:34 PM
old leghumper
As I kind of expected, ten shooters showed an interest in ELR shooting/matches with a handgun, one who showed no interest but likes to chime in on most every subject and over 650 that got to exercise their keyboard(I know most are just hunters which is great).

Also as expected, barrel length is an issue. As a long time sillywet shooter, I prefer a 15" length but anything under what the BATF considers a rifle length I can live with(16").

A few here propgrated longer barrel lengths for what ever reason so potential shooters
will cry and not participate just as in the Cold Turkey match because their toy did not fit in. Monkey seers monkey doers!

I do hope this ELR for handguns comes to fruition.

There will need to be a standardized set of rules but hopefully not by the NRA.

My 3rd and 4th cents worth.


----------------------
Never argue with an idiot: they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
I am that idiot.
August 08, 2018, 05:43 PM
Ernie
Gary,
I have been using 16" and longer barrels since the late 80's or early 90's.
It had nothing to do with IHMSA, Rich's match, or anything or anyone else.
I think Rich would have preferred all barrel lengths at 14" or shorter for his match...Nothing wrong with that either-Personal Preference.
I have a number of SP's with barrel lengths shorter than 16"

To date, there is only one sub 16" barreled ELR SP that I am aware of that was designed to shoot at 2K+....Randy's.
I think it's great what he is doing.
When you consider the weight of his gun and the type of bipod he is using, we all have to admit that there is nothing field worthy...Which is fine! WHY?
He is playing the game to be competitive in a specific discipline.
To pull one IHMSA rule out to justify another discipline is interesting to say the least.
I sure would not want to adhere to the weight limitations or the shooting positions.
Handguns do not have barrel limitations. We are not shooting rifles

There are a number of reasons why folks don't attend WY-SHOT, Cold Turkey Shoot, and other unique handgun shoots.
Belittling folks who don't want to play a certain handgun game will never change their mind, but rather accomplish just the opposite in my opinion.
Accept the fact that some people will never be attracted to the "XYZ" SP Match.

For others, they decide they want to play a different handgun game (for whatever reason).
I have SEB customers, who will switch disciplines in the 6-12 month wait time for rest.
Some, by that time have given up comp shooting for a variety of reasons.

Some don't like shooting from field positions, others don't care for shooting off of a bench at paper, for some the distances are intimidating, for others it is the overall cost, conflicts at work, family, health, and the list can be endless.
Many people don't enjoy competition or they don't have something that would be competitive in their own mind.

This year at WY-SHOT we played at distances beyond 1000 yards on Wednesday. Steel prairie dogs at 1177 yards and a 18” gong at 1592 yards.
Who would like to do more of this in 2019?
Distances could go out to around 2500 yards.
Let me know.
My biggest piece of steel is smaller than the King Of The 2 Mile smallest target (24”x37”).
I would get some more steel if the interest is there.
So far, I have a handful or more that want to have more ELR steel opportunities.

Thinking about the prairie dogs in and around 1100 yards again, and then put in one big target also at the same distance that the dogs are at.
Then one between the dogs (1500ish yards) and another target which will be just past 1 mile (Probably 1800+). The last one would be around 2300-2500 yards.
Would probably use targets that are about the same size as King of The 2 Mile comp does. I would get them outfitted with target hit indicator lights as well.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
August 08, 2018, 06:37 PM
Hoggin
All for the longer targets on day 3 at wyshot. And with it being steel and having the lights it will have instant confirmation which the shooters will love.

Let them run whatever they bring. An inch or two of barrel will make little difference at these ranges but a good spotter will make a hell of a lot of difference.

Sounds like day 3 just got better! And that steel will still be there on the bonus dog day after the match for guys and gals that want to push it.
August 08, 2018, 07:37 PM
old leghumper
quote:
Originally posted by Ernie:
Gary,
I have been using 16" and longer barrels since the late 80's or early 90's.
It had nothing to do with IHMSA, Rich's match, or anything or anyone else.
I think Rich would have preferred all barrel lengths at 14" or shorter for his match...Nothing wrong with that either-Personal Preference.
I have a number of SP's with barrel lengths shorter than 16"

To date, there is only one sub 16" barreled ELR SP that I am aware of that was designed to shoot at 2K+....Randy's.
I think it's great what he is doing.
When you consider the weight of his gun and the type of bipod he is using, we all have to admit that there is nothing field worthy...Which is fine! WHY?
He is playing the game to be competitive in a specific discipline.
To pull one IHMSA rule out to justify another discipline is interesting to say the least.
I sure would not want to adhere to the weight limitations or the shooting positions.
Handguns do not have barrel limitations. We are not shooting rifles

There are a number of reasons why folks don't attend WY-SHOT, Cold Turkey Shoot, and other unique handgun shoots.
Belittling folks who don't want to play a certain handgun game will never change their mind, but rather accomplish just the opposite in my opinion.
Accept the fact that some people will never be attracted to the "XYZ" SP Match.

For others, they decide they want to play a different handgun game (for whatever reason).
I have SEB customers, who will switch disciplines in the 6-12 month wait time for rest.
Some, by that time have given up comp shooting for a variety of reasons.

Some don't like shooting from field positions, others don't care for shooting off of a bench at paper, for some the distances are intimidating, for others it is the overall cost, conflicts at work, family, health, and the list can be endless.
Many people don't enjoy competition or they don't have something that would be competitive in their own mind.

This year at WY-SHOT we played at distances beyond 1000 yards on Wednesday. Steel prairie dogs at 1177 yards and a 18” gong at 1592 yards.
Who would like to do more of this in 2019?
Distances could go out to around 2500 yards.
Let me know.
My biggest piece of steel is smaller than the King Of The 2 Mile smallest target (24”x37”).
I would get some more steel if the interest is there.
So far, I have a handful or more that want to have more ELR steel opportunities.

Thinking about the prairie dogs in and around 1100 yards again, and then put in one big target also at the same distance that the dogs are at.
Then one between the dogs (1500ish yards) and another target which will be just past 1 mile (Probably 1800+). The last one would be around 2300-2500 yards.
Would probably use targets that are about the same size as King of The 2 Mile comp does. I would get them outfitted with target hit indicator lights as well.
thumbup thumbup thumbup

After a long talk with Ernie, I was reminded to shoot what you brung!!! There are places that will not let you shoot ELR, benchrest or F-class because you do not have a butt stock. They are uneducated as to what a good SP and its driver can do and do not want to lose to what I'm sure they consider an inferior set up.

So "Shut up and dribble" er I mean shoot. thumbup thumbup thumbup

Have a nice day.


----------------------
Never argue with an idiot: they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
I am that idiot.
August 09, 2018, 12:54 PM
40xmike
quote:
Originally posted by old leghumper:
quote:
Originally posted by Ernie:
Gary,
I have been using 16" and longer barrels since the late 80's or early 90's.
It had nothing to do with IHMSA, Rich's match, or anything or anyone else.
I think Rich would have preferred all barrel lengths at 14" or shorter for his match...Nothing wrong with that either-Personal Preference.
I have a number of SP's with barrel lengths shorter than 16"

To date, there is only one sub 16" barreled ELR SP that I am aware of that was designed to shoot at 2K+....Randy's.
I think it's great what he is doing.
When you consider the weight of his gun and the type of bipod he is using, we all have to admit that there is nothing field worthy...Which is fine! WHY?
He is playing the game to be competitive in a specific discipline.
To pull one IHMSA rule out to justify another discipline is interesting to say the least.
I sure would not want to adhere to the weight limitations or the shooting positions.
Handguns do not have barrel limitations. We are not shooting rifles

There are a number of reasons why folks don't attend WY-SHOT, Cold Turkey Shoot, and other unique handgun shoots.
Belittling folks who don't want to play a certain handgun game will never change their mind, but rather accomplish just the opposite in my opinion.
Accept the fact that some people will never be attracted to the "XYZ" SP Match.

For others, they decide they want to play a different handgun game (for whatever reason).
I have SEB customers, who will switch disciplines in the 6-12 month wait time for rest.
Some, by that time have given up comp shooting for a variety of reasons.

Some don't like shooting from field positions, others don't care for shooting off of a bench at paper, for some the distances are intimidating, for others it is the overall cost, conflicts at work, family, health, and the list can be endless.
Many people don't enjoy competition or they don't have something that would be competitive in their own mind.

This year at WY-SHOT we played at distances beyond 1000 yards on Wednesday. Steel prairie dogs at 1177 yards and a 18” gong at 1592 yards.
Who would like to do more of this in 2019?
Distances could go out to around 2500 yards.
Let me know.
My biggest piece of steel is smaller than the King Of The 2 Mile smallest target (24”x37”).
I would get some more steel if the interest is there.
So far, I have a handful or more that want to have more ELR steel opportunities.

Thinking about the prairie dogs in and around 1100 yards again, and then put in one big target also at the same distance that the dogs are at.
Then one between the dogs (1500ish yards) and another target which will be just past 1 mile (Probably 1800+). The last one would be around 2300-2500 yards.
Would probably use targets that are about the same size as King of The 2 Mile comp does. I would get them outfitted with target hit indicator lights as well.
thumbup thumbup thumbup

After a long talk with Ernie, I was reminded to shoot what you brung!!! There are places that will not let you shoot ELR, benchrest or F-class because you do not have a butt stock. They are uneducated as to what a good SP and its driver can do and do not want to lose to what I'm sure they consider an inferior set up.

So "Shut up and dribble" er I mean shoot. thumbup thumbup thumbup

Have a nice day.




thumbup thumbup

-Mike
August 09, 2018, 06:26 PM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by Hoggin:
All for the longer targets on day 3 at wyshot. And with it being steel and having the lights it will have instant confirmation which the shooters will love.

Let them run whatever they bring. An inch or two of barrel will make little difference at these ranges but a good spotter will make a hell of a lot of difference.

Sounds like day 3 just got better! And that steel will still be there on the bonus dog day after the match for guys and gals that want to push it.


I will make it happen.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
August 09, 2018, 09:43 PM
Iowa Fox
quote:
Originally posted by Hoggin:

Let them run whatever they bring. An inch or two of barrel will make little difference at these ranges but a good spotter will make a hell of a lot of difference.


Well said Chris.

The first year I was out there Ernie & Chuck put on a little long range demo for us. Chuck said " When the shooter misses it not his fault, it's the spotters". I know that's what they drilled into him in the army but its true.

Jon
August 10, 2018, 11:01 PM
ssphunter
Nice to know it's not my fault for missing. LOL


------------------------------
Enjoy your family and friends today as they may not be here tomorow.
August 11, 2018, 01:35 AM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by ssphunter:
Nice to know it's not my fault for missing. LOL

It is a partnership, where each person needs to do their job as good as possible.


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
September 25, 2018, 05:58 AM
Hamish
All,

I'm probably the last guy who should be flapping his gums on this subject because I do not shoot LR due to physical limitations, but I am absolutely dumbfounded that the biggest point of contention of folks getting together to shoot is barrel length.

I see several posts where there is a distinct impression given that there is a BATFE decreed pistol barrel length. (facepalm)

I do not understand why anyone would even blink twice about how much tube sticks out of the receiver, let alone make an issue of it, especially by anyone who enjoys handgun shooting. Do the bench rest folks make an issue of maximum barrel length? Is there ANY intrinsic "advantage" with a certain length under or over another when it comes to accuracy in the real world?

Weight limitations for competitive classes I understand. Barrel length I do not. If any of you folks are physically and financially able to go and enjoy yourselves, I would urge you to forget about the silly stuff and just go do it.

If anyone would be put off of attending one of your get togethers because another shooter has a half inch more barrel than what he considers maximum, you're better off without that kind of mind set.

For the record, I do hunt and shoot for relaxation with a 20.5" XP in a factory center grip stock.
September 25, 2018, 06:22 PM
Iowa Fox
Hamish, are you the same Hamish from cast boolits? If you are I have read your posts for years there. Either way welcome to Specialty Pistols.

Jon
September 25, 2018, 07:25 PM
Hamish
For better or worse, it's me,,,,,,.

Thanks for the welcome Jon. Lurked here off and on for a few years.

I just went back and read my previous post and it kind of comes across as a rant, but I was trying to get my frustration across that folks should enjoy their hobby before they get to where they are physically unable to do it. I'd give anything to make WY and shoot, but I still hunt a bit and go to the range when the weather is decent.

Like most here I witnessed a lot of the garbage that went on in IHMSA and the divisive cliquishness that went on with the evolution of compound bows and I just never "got it".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hamish,
September 26, 2018, 01:24 AM
Ernie
quote:
Originally posted by Hamish:
All,

I'm probably the last guy who should be flapping his gums on this subject because I do not shoot LR due to physical limitations, but I am absolutely dumbfounded that the biggest point of contention of folks getting together to shoot is barrel length.

I see several posts where there is a distinct impression given that there is a BATFE decreed pistol barrel length. (facepalm)

I do not understand why anyone would even blink twice about how much tube sticks out of the receiver, let alone make an issue of it, especially by anyone who enjoys handgun shooting. Do the bench rest folks make an issue of maximum barrel length? Is there ANY intrinsic "advantage" with a certain length under or over another when it comes to accuracy in the real world?

Weight limitations for competitive classes I understand. Barrel length I do not. If any of you folks are physically and financially able to go and enjoy yourselves, I would urge you to forget about the silly stuff and just go do it.

If anyone would be put off of attending one of your get togethers because another shooter has a half inch more barrel than what he considers maximum, you're better off without that kind of mind set.

For the record, I do hunt and shoot for relaxation with a 20.5" XP in a factory center grip stock.


Welcome to SP!


Ernie (xphunter) "The Un-Tactical"
WY-SHOT 2022 June 20-22
October 19, 2018, 06:11 PM
280 AI
I the gas doesn't run out on this . I have 2 rear grips on the group buy that one was going to be a 6 BRX but I might have to re think that decision . I probably couldn't find a place to practice around here but like the thought of be able to try !
I am getting excited about the reality of this THANK YOU All Jason
October 21, 2018, 02:01 PM
old leghumper
Rayner's!


----------------------
Never argue with an idiot: they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
I am that idiot.